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作者: dobemomo    時間: 2009-6-3 09:19     標題:

sorry, 又係我呀

請問有乜嘢菜佢哋唔食得呀?  係咪全部菜都要生既, 唔洗煮熟?

唔該哂
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-3 09:32

引用:
原帖由 dobemomo 於 2009-6-3 09:19 發表
請問有乜嘢菜佢哋唔食得呀?  係咪全部菜都要生既, 唔洗煮熟?
有說貓狗唔可以食洋荵類,會引至貧血。

BARF裏面無嘢要煮的,但蔬果要攪碎。
作者: cattiew    時間: 2009-6-3 10:08

板主..我想問下我home 如果有種wheat grass 自助餐,佢地長期有得食 , 咁可唔可以唔係佢地d野食度加菜ar?

[ 本帖最後由 cattiew 於 2009-6-3 11:24 編輯 ]
作者: Scythia    時間: 2009-6-3 10:19

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 3-6-2009 09:32 發表

有說貓狗唔可以食洋荵類,會引至貧血。

BARF裏面無嘢要煮的,但蔬果要攪碎。
版主, 唔止咁少, 俾個網址你過目, 雖然香港冇幾何有機會俾狗狗咬到植物, 又例如好多人都唔知貓狗唔食得提子 (因為有幾種乾糧都有提子精華)

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/poison-control/plants/

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1661&aid=1030

http://www.bva-awf.org.uk/resources/leaflets/pets_poisons_leaflet_2008_FINAL1.pdf


貓奴狗主都啱睇, 尤其是自製 BARF, 應該睇吓有咩唔可以加落去

[ 本帖最後由 Mint_Tea 於 2009-6-3 10:23 編輯 ]
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-3 10:51

引用:
原帖由 Mint_Tea 於 2009-6-3 10:19 發表


版主, 唔止咁少, 俾個網址你過目, 雖然香港冇幾何有機會俾狗狗咬到植物, 又例如好多人都唔知貓狗唔食得提子 (因為有幾種乾糧都有提子精華)

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/poison-control/plants/

http://www.pe ...
謝謝。

提子係近年才發現唔食得,不過我們對佢的毒性了解唔多,有人餵提子比狗食,餵咗幾十年,但加洲SPCA的poison center又有案例吃了8 粒提子後出現嘔吐及唔舒服,有中毒徵狀。
你提到的乾糧有提子精華,會唔會係提子"核"精華(grape seed extract)?呢個應該無毒性,而且係隻好勁的抗氧化劑。
作者: Scythia    時間: 2009-6-3 10:58

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 3-6-2009 10:51 發表

謝謝。

提子係近年才發現唔食得,不過我們對佢的毒性了解唔多,有人餵提子比狗食,餵咗幾十年,但加洲SPCA的poison center又有案例吃了8 粒提子後出現嘔吐及唔舒服,有中毒徵狀。
你提到的乾糧有提子精華,會唔會係提子"核"精 ...
係, 但我又唔明點解到宜家都未知係提子嘅咩對貓狗有毒, 我都有見我婆餵提子俾佢隻唐狗, 當時我仲嚇到扣佢喉, 點知我婆話隻狗咩生果都食, 總之佢食咩, 隻狗就食咩, 所以.... 真係唔知點解隻狗可以到宜家都唔死...
作者: cattiew    時間: 2009-6-3 11:24

引用:
原帖由 cattiew 於 2009-6-3 10:08 發表
板主..我想問下我home 如果有種wheat grass 自助餐,佢地長期有得食 , 咁可唔可以唔係佢地d野食度加菜ar?
板主唔理人GA

我見有乾糧有Blueberries GA WOR .. 咁係咪即係食得la
作者: KATHYWONG    時間: 2009-6-3 11:38

引用:
原帖由 cattiew 於 2009-6-3 11:24 發表


板主唔理人GA

我見有乾糧有Blueberries GA WOR .. 咁係咪即係食得la
Blueberries又係高抗氧化的食物對眼睛好好的 ! 不過係咪我們就咁給他食呢 , 還是要是抽取提煉過先得呢 ?
因為好多人吃的SUPPLEMENT 都是用植物的精華 , 咁貓咪吃呢D又得唔得呢 ?
作者: dobemomo    時間: 2009-6-3 18:33

多謝大家既提供呀!

我知道橙類, 菇類, 豆類, garlic 同 onions 係唔得, 不過估唔到連 apple, aloe vera, avocado, cherry, fig, 生雞蛋, 生魚都唔得 

呢 d 食物我都好 

我亦見過有隻狗糧係有牛油果成份, 話係對 skin 好呢。。。。
作者: Scythia    時間: 2009-6-3 21:01

引用:
原帖由 dobemomo 於 3-6-2009 18:33 發表
多謝大家既提供呀!

我知道橙類, 菇類, 豆類, garlic 同 onions 係唔得, 不過估唔到連 apple, aloe vera, avocado, cherry, fig, 生雞蛋, 生魚都唔得 

呢 d 食物我都好 

我亦見過有隻狗糧係有 ...
其實貓狗糧有, 一定係佢哋做哂 test, 但我唔敢試...
睇咗 d 網站, 大概都係話呢 d 唔食得, 不過有時未必係有毒, 例如生雞蛋... 有事嘅唔係成隻蛋, 而係生蛋白, 生蛋白嘅 avidin 會破壞 biotin, 熟咗就冇問題~  而生魚, 就有 thiaminase 破壞 vitamin b1 (對貓就係, 但對狗唔知係咪一樣), 我哋都有個貓友會俾生嘅多春魚貓貓食, 貓貓健在, 未死

作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-3 23:00

等等先,唔好講下講下,講到等其他人信以為真,斷章取意。A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

蘋果係棵蘋果樹和蘋果核有少少毒,橙係橙皮上橙色好香嗰啲精油有少少毒。我估無人餵隻狗食蘋果樹葉,或把幾十個橙的外皮搾油餵隻狗。

蒜頭好像人吃白果一樣,狂吃是有毒,但又有幾多人吃白果吃到中毒?一般人又會餵幾多蒜頭給隻狗食?

魚生是有thiaminase,但不是種種魚都有,含量也不多,否則日本死得人多,因為人都要B1。蛋白也是一樣。

逐樣講,有排講。
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-3 23:11

引用:
原帖由 cattiew 於 2009-6-3 11:24 發表


板主唔理人GA

我見有乾糧有Blueberries GA WOR .. 咁係咪即係食得la
唔係唔理,係唔識答。我一直都認為唔洗加菜給貓吃,但大家唔同意,連已經有加菜的Dr.B都覺得唔夠菜。你再問個咁既問題,重點根本唔係有無種小麥草,所以要諗一諗。
作者: 叻叻    時間: 2009-6-4 08:35

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-3 23:11 發表

唔係唔理,係唔識答。我一直都認為唔洗加菜給貓吃,但大家唔同意,連已經有加菜的Dr.B都覺得唔夠菜。你再問個咁既問題,重點根本唔係有無種小麥草,所以要諗一諗。 ...
版主,有時我地homemade架,但唔想次次都落雜豆,又唔知邊d菜唔食得,咁homemade時撈埋菜貓貓又揀起唔食,咁有好多貓友自己種小麥草,等貓貓自己覺得有需要時走去食,咁homemade時咪唔駛加菜囉,我諗意思係咁掛?
作者: cattiew    時間: 2009-6-4 09:52

引用:
原帖由 叻叻 於 2009-6-4 08:35 發表

版主,有時我地homemade架,但唔想次次都落雜豆,又唔知邊d菜唔食得,咁homemade時撈埋菜貓貓又揀起唔食,咁有好多貓友自己種小麥草,等貓貓自己覺得有需要時走去食,咁homemade時咪唔駛加菜囉,我諗意思係咁掛? ...
係ar...加左菜貓地又唔like....食得好慢..而家咪屈服種番wheat grass 比貓地食lor.... 想cut 左貓餐D菜.... 唔知可唔可以咁做呢?
作者: dobemomo    時間: 2009-6-4 11:05

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-3 23:00 發表
等等先,唔好講下講下,講到等其他人信以為真,斷章取意。A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

蘋果係棵蘋果樹和蘋果核有少少毒,橙係橙皮上橙色好香嗰啲精油有少少毒。我估無人餵隻狗食蘋果樹葉,或把幾十個橙的外皮搾 ...
哦, 明白.

其實我一向都有比 apple 同橙佢哋食, 當然無比核, 葉同橙皮啦.

咁我就安心喇.

再問多一個問題, 豆付 ok 嗎?

唔該哂
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-4 11:49

引用:
原帖由 叻叻 於 2009-6-4 08:35 發表

版主,有時我地homemade架,但唔想次次都落雜豆,又唔知邊d菜唔食得,咁homemade時撈埋菜貓貓又揀起唔食,咁有好多貓友自己種小麥草,等貓貓自己覺得有需要時走去食,咁homemade時咪唔駛加菜囉,我諗意思係咁掛? ...
落雜豆?咁奇怪?點解要餵佢食雜豆?

食糧有一半Dr.B的話,唔洗搞咁多野,淨餵肉骨就可以了,當然唔駛加菜。除非有病,譬如腎病、mega colon等等,要特別modify個diet。

要提提一點,貓比較鍾意吃淨肌肉,Dr.B的糧有骨有內臟又有菜,所以啲貓prefer吃homemade。當你要轉哂homemade,到時便要加番哂呢啲野了。不過可能又有新問題,即等於小朋友要吃樓下快餐店的黑椒豬扒加腸仔飯,而唔想吃阿媽煮的住家飯,但當你嘗試把黑椒豬扒加腸仔飯改到健康,就變咗唔夠咸、唔夠汁、太少肉、太多菜,個小朋友又唔想食了。
作者: cattiew    時間: 2009-6-4 12:01

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-4 11:49 發表

落雜豆?咁奇怪?點解要餵佢食雜豆?

食糧有一半Dr.B的話,唔洗搞咁多野,淨餵肉骨就可以了,當然唔駛加菜。除非有病,譬如腎病、mega colon等等,要特別modify個diet。

要提提一點,貓比較鍾意吃淨肌肉,Dr.B的糧有骨有內臟又有菜,所 ...
咁講板主係覺得完全唔使加菜ar?!  咁唔加菜又洗唔洗種wheat grass比佢地食ar ? 唔比菜貓地好似冇all到咁多毛....會嘔多d毛咁wor 
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-4 12:14

引用:
原帖由 cattiew 於 2009-6-4 09:52 發表
係ar...加左菜貓地又唔like....食得好慢..而家咪屈服種番wheat grass 比貓地食lor.... 想cut 左貓餐D菜.... 唔知可唔可以咁做呢?
我上面講嘅,算唔算答咗你?

我都唔知你餵緊乜,餵緊幾多,點可以簡單答你可以定唔可以?好似我剛剛先知道你們講的蔬菜是指急凍雜豆嘅!我都寫咗咁多次咩野為之菜,咩野為之肉骨,咩野比例係我們覺得好的。

但餵貓並不是只有一個方法,我個方法也未必最好,就算收窄個範圍,淨講BARF,都有唔同的見解。我可以簡單地話你錯,唔應該唔照我的方法做,甚至用嗰啲"專業人士"的愚民手段 - 「你咁餵隻貓好危險,食Dr.B啦,一陣隻貓缺鈣或者塞腸或者唔夠微量原素...(下删幾百字),到時洗錢事小,救唔救到,有無後遺症都唔知。 」
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-4 12:17

引用:
原帖由 dobemomo 於 2009-6-4 11:05 發表

哦, 明白.

其實我一向都有比 apple 同橙佢哋食, 當然無比核, 葉同橙皮啦.

咁我就安心喇.

再問多一個問題, 豆付 ok 嗎?

唔該哂
豆付 ok,但不是主食,唔好過份。
作者: cattiew    時間: 2009-6-4 13:22

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-4 12:14 發表

「你咁餵隻貓好危險,食Dr.B啦,一陣隻貓缺鈣或者塞腸或者唔夠微量原素...(下删幾百字),到時洗錢事小,救唔救到,有無後遺症都唔知。 」
塞腸係咪即係食左奇怪野又all唔番出尼果d ar ... 食平時d野都會塞腸ga  ..... 
作者: AKI_LOK    時間: 2009-6-4 20:05

我之前睇書話狗食少量提子有助防止關節痛, 但大量食就會腎衰竭
有時我都會比一兩粒佢地食
菜我係生餵, 但薯仔就一定要煮熟, 有芽既著仔生食好似話有毒
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-4 20:29

引用:
原帖由 AKI_LOK 於 2009-6-4 20:05 發表
菜我係生餵, 但薯仔就一定要煮熟, 有芽既著仔生食好似話有毒
有芽薯仔是生熟都有毒,嗰隻毒唔會被熱力破壞的。不過有澱粉質的東西都是要煮的,唔煮過的澱粉質好難消化。
作者: dobemomo    時間: 2009-6-5 08:53

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-4 12:17 發表

豆付 ok,但不是主食,唔好過份。
明白, 唔該!
作者: Scythia    時間: 2009-6-5 10:21

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 4-6-2009 11:49 發表

食糧有一半Dr.B的話,唔洗搞咁多野,淨餵肉骨就可以了,當然唔駛加菜。除非有病,譬如腎病、mega colon等等,要特別modify個diet。

要提提一點,貓比較鍾意吃淨肌肉,Dr.B的糧有骨有內臟又有菜,所以啲貓prefer吃homemade。當你要轉哂homemade,到時便要加番哂呢啲野了。
呢樣嘢想問好耐...  我平時每貓朝早食1/2 塊 Dr. B 袋鼠 ; 夜晚俾1/2塊 Dr. B 火雞 + 半生熟雞柳半條約15g ; 其實咁樣加雞柳有冇問題 ? 我一直都覺得唔需要加骨 or 鈣粉 / 半個雞心內贜等等...
作者: AKI_LOK    時間: 2009-6-5 23:14

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-4 20:29 發表

有芽薯仔是生熟都有毒,嗰隻毒唔會被熱力破壞的。不過有澱粉質的東西都是要煮的,唔煮過的澱粉質好難消化。
原來係咁, 唔該晒!
作者: 小貓女    時間: 2009-6-6 11:02

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-4 11:49 發表

落雜豆?咁奇怪?點解要餵佢食雜豆?
食糧有一半Dr.B的話,唔洗搞咁多野,淨餵肉骨就可以了,當然唔駛加菜。除非有病,譬如腎病、mega colon等等,要特別modify個diet。
要提提一點,貓比較鍾意吃淨肌肉,Dr.B的糧有骨有內臟又有菜,所以啲貓prefer吃homemade。當你要轉哂homemade,到時便要加番哂呢啲野了。不過可能又有新問題,即等於小朋友要吃樓下快餐店的黑椒豬扒加腸仔飯,而唔想吃阿媽煮的住家飯,但當你嘗試把黑椒豬扒加腸仔飯改到健康,就變咗唔夠咸、唔夠汁、太少肉、太多菜,個小朋友又唔想食了。
請問你的意思是否指如果每餐都係一半 Dr.B + 一半 Homemade 的話, 咁即使每日都係咁樣一日兩餐, Homemade 果部份都可以唔駛加內臟同菜 ?Homemade 果部份又係唔係一定要有骨在內 ?如果每日 Homemade 果部份都用淨肉可以嗎 ?
咁如果每餐都只餵 Homemade 的話, 又係唔係餐餐都要加返內臟同菜 ?菜其實有哪些唔餵得 ?
平時會用蘋果, 蘿白, 青豆, 菜心, 白菜仔, 生菜...咁仲有咩果或菜可以餵 ?
西瓜, 木瓜, 哈密瓜, 士多啤梨, 奇異果, 菠蘿, 香蕉, 番茄, 冬瓜, 節瓜, 青瓜, 勝瓜, 茄子, 椰菜, 通菜, 芥蘭 ... 等等
請問又餵唔餵得呢 ?
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-6 21:56

引用:
原帖由 Mint_Tea 於 2009-6-5 10:21 發表
呢樣嘢想問好耐...  我平時每貓朝早食1/2 塊 Dr. B 袋鼠 ; 夜晚俾1/2塊 Dr. B 火雞 + 半生熟雞柳半條約15g ; 其實咁樣加雞柳有冇問題 ? 我一直都覺得唔需要加骨 or 鈣粉 / 半個雞心內贜等等... ...
冇問題,15g 只不過是1/10的食量,同小食無咩分別,不用担心營養問題。
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-6 22:28

引用:
原帖由 小貓女 於 2009-6-6 11:02 發表
請問你的意思是否指如果每餐都係一半 Dr.B + 一半 Homemade 的話, 咁即使每日都係咁樣一日兩餐, Homemade 果部份都可以唔駛加內臟同菜 ?
唔駛加
引用:
Homemade 果部份又係唔係一定要有骨在內 ?
係。你同上面Mint_tea的情况唔一樣,當homemade佔一半的食量時,homemade這半的營養便要注意。內臟、蔬菜比較次要,不加問題不大,但BARF的主食,是有骨的肉。
引用:
如果每日 Homemade 果部份都用淨肉可以嗎 ?
唔可以,條數好簡單,本身Dr.B的鈣磷比是1.1 : 1 ,你加一倍淨肉,立即變成 0.6 : 1 。
引用:
咁如果每餐都只餵 Homemade 的話, 又係唔係餐餐都要加返內臟同菜 ?
唔一定餐餐都要加,但拉平衡要吃夠約20%的內臟。對貓來說,菜唔一定要加,唔加唔會營養不良。
引用:
菜其實有哪些唔餵得 ?
平時會用蘋果, 蘿白, 青豆, 菜心, 白菜仔, 生菜...咁仲有咩果或菜可以餵 ?
西瓜, 木瓜, 哈密瓜, 士多啤梨, 奇異果, 菠蘿, 香蕉, 番茄, 冬瓜, 節瓜, 青瓜, 勝瓜, 茄子, 椰菜, 通菜, 芥蘭 ... 等等
請問又餵唔餵得呢 ?
全都餵得,但要攪碎。
作者: 小貓女    時間: 2009-6-6 22:37

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-6 22:28 發表

唔駛加

係。你同上面Mint_tea的情况唔一樣,當homemade佔一半的食量時,homemade這半的營養便要注意。內臟、蔬菜比較次要,不加問題不大,但BARF的主食,是有骨的肉。

唔可以,條數好簡單,本身Dr.B的鈣磷比是1.1 : 1 ,你加一倍 ...
明白了,謝謝解答
作者: 小貓女    時間: 2009-6-9 11:14

引用:
原帖由 Mint_Tea 於 2009-6-3 21:01 發表
例如生雞蛋... 有事嘅唔係成隻蛋, 而係生蛋白, 生蛋白嘅 avidin 會破壞 biotin, 熟咗就冇問題~   ...
我想問下版主 .. 貓貓係咪真係唔食得生雞白 ??
但我好似見到 Dr.B 裡面都好似有雞蛋架喎
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-9 21:20

引用:
原帖由 小貓女 於 2009-6-9 11:14 發表
我想問下版主 .. 貓貓係咪真係唔食得生雞白 ??
但我好似見到 Dr.B 裡面都好似有雞蛋架喎
特別把蛋黄抽起,只餵生蛋白,是有問題的,不應這樣做,要連蛋黃餵。
引用:
BARF FAQ 5.5 有講 -
另一個被引述的實驗,是說吃生蛋可以導致Biotin的缺乏而死亡,因為生蛋白含avidin,會阻礙biotin的吸收。後來才知這個研究是在老鼠身上進行,連續不斷餵生蛋白直致死亡,然然檢驗是缺乏甚麼營養死的。(按﹕我有次在Discovery Channel上看到一種常偷雀蛋吃的動物,正奇怪牠們為甚麼不因為缺乏biotin而死亡。後來才在一個常見食物營養表中看到,biotin含量最高的常見食物竟然是蛋黃!大自然的奇妙,又一次嚇我一跳。)

作者: cattiew    時間: 2009-6-10 10:16

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-9 21:20 發表

特別把蛋黄抽起,只餵生蛋白,是有問題的,不應這樣做,要連蛋黃餵。
咁好唔好淨餵生旦黃ar
作者: 叻叻    時間: 2009-6-10 11:41

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-9 21:20 發表

特別把蛋黄抽起,只餵生蛋白,是有問題的,不應這樣做,要連蛋黃餵。

即係如果連蛋黃餵生蛋白都無問題呀?
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-10 14:15

引用:
原帖由 cattiew 於 2009-6-10 10:16 發表
咁好唔好淨餵生旦黃ar
咁啲蛋白點呀?如果倒咗佢就太浪費了,畢竟蛋白好有營養麻。

但如果你要蛋白來做mask,咁緊係餵淨蛋黃比佢地食。
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-10 14:16

引用:
原帖由 叻叻 於 2009-6-10 11:41 發表

即係如果連蛋黃餵生蛋白都無問題呀?

作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-24 17:11

我有個印象,唔記得是cattiew定唯問過我餵alfalfa比貓吃的問題,我好像答咗,但是答應再叫Dr.B講深入一點。

現在完全唔記得係邊條thread講的(唉,早知聽阿娘講,後生時唔好成日劈酒,現在真係壞腦喇),但以下是Dr.B的說法:

Speaking to this, let me say that almost any nutrient or food in excess can be poisonous and that clearly, some animals species (and individuals within species) are more sensitive to certain compounds contained in some foods compared to others.  The degree of sensitivity does depend on their detoxification system (mostly in the liver), whose functions are in turn dependent upon the Evolutionary background of the animal in question.  Salt is a toxin in excess, as is protein, fat and water.  Kelp, which may be thought of as a marine version of Medicago sativa (Alfalfa or Lucerne) is toxic in excess – both for its salt content and its iodine content and probably for other reasons as well.  Indeed, most whole raw vegetables contain toxic materials and that includes refined carbohydrates – these too in excess act as slow poisons, compromising the mammalian hormonal balance, resulting, in hyperglycaemia, ketoacidosis and if untreated – in death.

It is a nonsense to say that the cat is not equipped to properly digest raw plant matter.  They have been ingesting raw plant material for millions of years – as found, often in great abundance, in the GIT of their prey, particularly small prey, which they ingest whole.  I personally have autopsied numerous feral cats (healthy cats, shot by farmers) and more often than not, their stomach contents have included large amounts of plant material.  It would be a brave person who would claim that cats do not obtain some benefit from this material.   For example, although they have lost the enzymes to convert beta-carotene to vitamin A (clearly they have not required to retain this enzyme system because animal prey is full of vitamin A), that is not to suggest for one moment that they do not obtain some benefit from the anti-oxidant properties of the beta-carotene (and other carotenoids) released from the cytoplasm of the broken down plant cellular material found in the intestines of their prey.

The claim that M. sativa should not be fed to cats on account of its poisonous principle(s) is instantly negated by making a simple observation.  Our cat products have always contained Medicago sativa and as a result, this supposedly highly toxic material has been fed to literally thousands of cats.   Not one of those cats has suffered as a result – indeed, cat owners are delighted with the improved and ongoing health of the cats that eat our foods.

We put it in there because of the obvious fact that cats have been receiving a benefit from the ingestion of small amounts of raw partly digested vegetable (plant) material [as found in the GIT (undigested in the stomach) of their prey] for millions of years – part of their evolutionary heritage.  Clearly, M. sativa is valuable as an unrefined and raw source of plant material, and from the point of view of its nutritional content, one of its most valuable components is its mineral content – most especially its trace mineral content.  There are other benefits of course, all well known, so I won’t detail them at this juncture.  What I would like to add is that the reason M. sativa has such an excellent mineral content is because of its incredibly deep root system – reaching often, more than forty feet into the sub-soil.  This is an area that has not been leached of its mineral content, an area untouched by modern fertilizers.  The problem with modern fertilizers such as superphosphate is that they tie up trace minerals, preventing crop plants from taking them up (even if they are present) at sufficient levels to meet the requirements of the eater.

I would be interested to know exactly how many cases of poisoning by Medicago sativa have been reported, how much was fed in these cases, the organ system (or systems) affected and the clinical outcomes in terms of death and/or illness – including all symptoms?   If there were deaths or illness, was the toxic principle (or principles) definitely identified?     Do they have information as to the levels of the toxic principles in the original ingested material and does this principle vary from region to region, season to season or between different strains of the plant?   Do the people making the claim that M. sativa should never be fed to cats have this type of information and is it from a reliable source – for example, is it information as reported by pathology laboratories – or are they working on hearsay and speculation?   

I have searched through some authoritative US texts to find information on this ‘problem’ to no avail.  The closest any of these texts comes to mentioning it is to say that some grasses cause gastrointestinal irritation – as mentioned in the article which claims that M. sativa should not be fed to cats (as per the link that you sent me - http://felineinstincts.ca/?p=642).

There is no mention of Medicago sativa or Alfalfa or Lucerne under the poisonous plant section in Current Veterinary therapy 14 by Bonagura – the latest edition.  This is perhaps the most widely used veterinary text throughout the western world and it certainly does mention a wide range of plants that are poisonous to cats.   I have also looked in my copy of Ettinger (not the latest, I must admit – but never the less – the year 2000 edition) and there is no mention of Medicago sativa (or any of its pseudonyms) as a poisonous plant.  I have looked at other authoritative cat books such as Sherding and similarly, there is no mention or listing of Lucerne (alfalfa or Medicago sativa) as a poisonous plant.    In addition, Dr. Pitcairn, perhaps the most well known and authoritative American veterinarian dealing with holistic matters, specifically recommends alfalfa as a treatment or therapy for cats in his book “Natural health for Dogs and Cats.”

Trust this perspective will be of some assistance to you.

As I have outlined above, I will definitely be most interested to hear of any authoritative information that suggests that M. sativa is dangerous to the health of cats.

Sincerely

Ian Billinghurst
作者: CurlDingNut    時間: 2009-6-25 01:00

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-24 17:11 發表
Speaking to this, let me say that almost any nutrient or food in excess can be poisonous and that clearly, some animals species (and individuals within species) are more sensitive to certain compounds contained in some foods compared to others.  The degree of sensitivity does depend on their detoxification system (mostly in the liver), whose functions are in turn dependent upon the Evolutionary background of the animal in question.  Salt is a toxin in excess, as is protein, fat and water.  Kelp, which may be thought of as a marine version of Medicago sativa (Alfalfa or Lucerne) is toxic in excess – both for its salt content and its iodine content and probably for other reasons as well.  Indeed, most whole raw vegetables contain toxic materials and that includes refined carbohydrates – these too in excess act as slow poisons, compromising the mammalian hormonal balance, resulting, in hyperglycaemia, ketoacidosis and if untreated – in death.

It is a nonsense to say that the cat is not equipped to properly digest raw plant matter.  They have been ingesting raw plant material for millions of years – as found, often in great abundance, in the GIT of their prey, particularly small prey, which they ingest whole.  I personally have autopsied numerous feral cats (healthy cats, shot by farmers) and more often than not, their stomach contents have included large amounts of plant material.  It would be a brave person who would claim that cats do not obtain some benefit from this material.   For example, although they have lost the enzymes to convert beta-carotene to vitamin A (clearly they have not required to retain this enzyme system because animal prey is full of vitamin A), that is not to suggest for one moment that they do not obtain some benefit from the anti-oxidant properties of the beta-carotene (and other carotenoids) released from the cytoplasm of the broken down plant cellular material found in the intestines of their prey.

The claim that M. sativa should not be fed to cats on account of its poisonous principle(s) is instantly negated by making a simple observation.  Our cat products have always contained Medicago sativa and as a result, this supposedly highly toxic material has been fed to literally thousands of cats.   Not one of those cats has suffered as a result – indeed, cat owners are delighted with the improved and ongoing health of the cats that eat our foods.

We put it in there because of the obvious fact that cats have been receiving a benefit from the ingestion of small amounts of raw partly digested vegetable (plant) material [as found in the GIT (undigested in the stomach) of their prey] for millions of years – part of their evolutionary heritage.  Clearly, M. sativa is valuable as an unrefined and raw source of plant material, and from the point of view of its nutritional content, one of its most valuable components is its mineral content – most especially its trace mineral content.  There are other benefits of course, all well known, so I won’t detail them at this juncture.  What I would like to add is that the reason M. sativa has such an excellent mineral content is because of its incredibly deep root system – reaching often, more than forty feet into the sub-soil.  This is an area that has not been leached of its mineral content, an area untouched by modern fertilizers.  The problem with modern fertilizers such as superphosphate is that they tie up trace minerals, preventing crop plants from taking them up (even if they are present) at sufficient levels to meet the requirements of the eater.

I would be interested to know exactly how many cases of poisoning by Medicago sativa have been reported, how much was fed in these cases, the organ system (or systems) affected and the clinical outcomes in terms of death and/or illness – including all symptoms?   If there were deaths or illness, was the toxic principle (or principles) definitely identified?     Do they have information as to the levels of the toxic principles in the original ingested material and does this principle vary from region to region, season to season or between different strains of the plant?   Do the people making the claim that M. sativa should never be fed to cats have this type of information and is it from a reliable source – for example, is it information as reported by pathology laboratories – or are they working on hearsay and speculation?   

I have searched through some authoritative US texts to find information on this ‘problem’ to no avail.  The closest any of these texts comes to mentioning it is to say that some grasses cause gastrointestinal irritation – as mentioned in the article which claims that M. sativa should not be fed to cats (as per the link that you sent me - http://felineinstincts.ca/?p=642).

There is no mention of Medicago sativa or Alfalfa or Lucerne under the poisonous plant section in Current Veterinary therapy 14 by Bonagura – the latest edition.  This is perhaps the most widely used veterinary text throughout the western world and it certainly does mention a wide range of plants that are poisonous to cats.   I have also looked in my copy of Ettinger (not the latest, I must admit – but never the less – the year 2000 edition) and there is no mention of Medicago sativa (or any of its pseudonyms) as a poisonous plant.  I have looked at other authoritative cat books such as Sherding and similarly, there is no mention or listing of Lucerne (alfalfa or Medicago sativa) as a poisonous plant.    In addition, Dr. Pitcairn, perhaps the most well known and authoritative American veterinarian dealing with holistic matters, specifically recommends alfalfa as a treatment or therapy for cats in his book “Natural health for Dogs and Cats.”

Trust this perspective will be of some assistance to you.

As I have outlined above, I will definitely be most interested to hear of any authoritative information that suggests that M. sativa is dangerous to the health of cats.......
請恕我學識淺薄...
可唔可以翻譯一下呢 ????
謝謝..
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-27 23:55

呢排比較忙,請等一等。
作者: Scythia    時間: 2009-6-29 09:52

一句講哂 : 小食多滋味, 多食壞肚皮
作者: barbarakwong    時間: 2009-6-30 10:37

hello 又係我

我在某本講人的生食書本裡看到以下一句:

"豆類不適合生食因為它含有會阻止分解蛋白質的酵素 - 胰蛋白酵素(Trypsin)運作的物質, 容易引起消化不良, 腹瀉和腹漲"

請問適合用在狗身上嗎?
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-6-30 12:05

引用:
原帖由 barbarakwong 於 2009-6-30 10:37 發表

hello 又係我

我在某本講人的生食書本裡看到以下一句:

"豆類不適合生食因為它含有會阻止分解蛋白質的酵素 - 胰蛋白酵素(Trypsin)運作的物質, 容易引起消化不良, 腹瀉和腹漲"

請問適合用在狗身上嗎? ...
對,狗和人應是一樣。Trypsin是在十二指腸分泌出來的其中一種蛋白質消化酵素。有些豆(如我們常吃的綠豆、黃豆)都有很少量trypsin inhibitor。生綠豆和黄豆相信很少人或狗會吃,吃了的最壞情况是消化不良,肚痾一次,不用太担心。
作者: barbarakwong    時間: 2009-6-30 13:59

引用:
原帖由 BARFHK 於 2009-6-30 12:05 發表


對,狗和人應是一樣。Trypsin是在十二指腸分泌出來的其中一種蛋白質消化酵素。有些豆(如我們常吃的綠豆、黃豆)都有很少量trypsin inhibitor。生綠豆和黄豆相信很少人或狗會吃,吃了的最壞情况是消化不良,肚痾一次,不用太担 ...
咁青豆毛豆荷蘭豆蜜糖豆果d綠色豆呢?
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2009-7-1 12:15

引用:
原帖由 barbarakwong 於 2009-6-30 13:59 發表
咁青豆毛豆荷蘭豆蜜糖豆果d綠色豆呢?
這方面資料唔多,紐西蘭嗰邊做個下實驗,17個田的青豆,有啲田種出來的高,有啲田低,低嗰啲可以生的用來做動物飼料,高嗰啲煮熟急凍賣去超市。

正如Mint Tea話 - 小食多滋味, 多食壞肚皮。如果您担心,就直頭唔好餵。
作者: poppopffee    時間: 2012-7-26 22:10

唔好意思,我想請問如果我加西蘭花比狗狗 (即DR. B + 西蘭花茸),請問西蘭花要煮的嗎?
作者: BARFHK    時間: 2012-8-3 13:41

引用:
原帖由 poppopffee 於 2012-7-26 22:10 發表
唔好意思,我想請問如果我加西蘭花比狗狗 (即DR. B + 西蘭花茸),請問西蘭花要煮的嗎?
可煮可不煮。




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